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Discussion: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react?

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TheActualLilyPat	40. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Apr 24 2009, 1:21 PM EDT "I don't know. Its been thrown out there since "the Manchurian candidate". I don't think real mind control is easy. Sure, people get hypnotised, but if you could really hypnotise pople into doing what you want we would see it done. People would hypnotise their bosses, girlfriends etc. The mind isn't like a computer, and memories aren't personality. they are quite different." Mind control isn't easy. Nor is it common. But when unethical scientists have access to "black budget" grant money for long enough, progress can be made fairly rapidly. Also, the public has been fed some egregious lies about the power of hypnosis when it's used by insiders with the right information. Please don't fall for the "I can't be made to do anything hypnotized that I wouldn't do awake" lie. The CIA did an experiment way back in the 50's, with a couple of their own secretaries, that conclusively disproved this. One woman, when deeply hypnotized, was instructed to pick up a gun (unloaded, thank the gods!) and point it at her friend and pull the trigger...and she did so without the slightest hesitation. A percentage of the population is what's known as "highly suggestible" and can be made to do almost anything if the commands are phrased correctly and the trance is deep enough. The British mentalist Derren Brown (sp?) knows this and you can watch him work this "magic" on the public on YouTube. LilyPat Post reply Do you find this valuable?
lollipopfop	41. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Apr 24 2009, 1:22 PM EDT "Anxiety can be a big issue with the military, I am a wife of and he tells me some of the stuff he just has to shut up and deal with and I get anxious. But I mean if they could make a deal to remove a flaw that kept you from something you wanted in life that would be awesome." Would it? Im not sure. Remember you are imprinted with someone elses traits to change. So if you wanted to be say brver, youd be getting someone elses bravery. You wouldn't really be you. id rather work on making myself better without having someone program me. Maybe Im not my "best" but at least Im myself. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
lollipopfop	42. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Apr 24 2009, 1:32 PM EDT Lilly Pat...Hmm..I hate doing this in a great thread, but this is an interesting topic. Maybe we should take it to another thread...but anyhoo... Ok..Yes. I think it is possible to hypnotise a very small portion of the population to do things that they would not ever do awake. Its not reliable, but its true Mentalists are different. The reason they can make you choose the "right" number or color or whatever is that you WANT their trick to work. They can't make you choose something you didn't like in the first place. they are communicating with the subject non verbaly, not mind controlling. Like if they are going to guess the number in your head, and they casually gesture three times, hold up three fingers, and keep pushing the number three...You know they want you to say "three". Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TheActualLilyPat	43. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Apr 24 2009, 2:50 PM EDT "Lilly Pat...Hmm..I hate doing this in a great thread, but this is an interesting topic. Maybe we should take it to another thread...but anyhoo... Ok..Yes. I think it is possible to hypnotise a very small portion of the population to do things that they would not ever do awake. Its not reliable, but its true Mentalists are different. The reason they can make you choose the "right" number or color or whatever is that you WANT their trick to work. They can't make you choose something you didn't like in the first place. they are communicating with the subject non verbaly, not mind controlling. Like if they are going to guess the number in your head, and they casually gesture three times, hold up three fingers, and keep pushing the number three...You know they want you to say "three"." The reason I mentioned Brown in particular is that I've seen him use techniques that I think originally were developed in mind control research programs. The reason I commented in this thread in particular is that most viewers of "Dollhouse" seem not to realize that when you speculate about being a "doll" you're actually talking about enslavement. The fact that for the show's purposes it's supposed to have been "voluntary" doesn't really change that, IMHO. I'm really glad to see that some fans are able to discern the moral ambiguity inherent in living a privileged life which demands the price of giving up your right to self-determination and even to your own memories. When you say above, "Maybe Im not my "best" but at least Im myself" you're raising the level of discourse to the point where we're talking about being in control of our own selves rather than allowing manipulative seekers of power and wealth to control us for their own benefit. LilyPat Post reply Do you find this valuable?
prisonern06	44. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Apr 25 2009, 12:56 AM EDT If I had found I was a doll within the Dollhouse. I would be asking questions: first why did I do it; what did I do and what were my past lives. Of course I would have unexplain memories. Memories that would lead me to ask what happened; or was that exotic brown eyed blonde babe I was formally married too. I would feel like Replicant Roy Battey at first but I wouldn't be frightened. I would want to know. Most of all I would want to know how was I selected/recruited for the Dollhouse. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
claritee	45. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Apr 25 2009, 1:38 AM EDT The truly fascinating question that the show and this thread begs is the ontology of self. should an individual feel guilty for things done in their body by another personality, when their own personality had no knowledge or control over the events? Should one feel a sense of violation for things the body does if the mind is not engaged? on another note I am interested by the folks who initially responded to this thread and their reaction against the romantic encounters. I suppose my sense of the issue is that I find violence and murder much more problematic and disturbing than sex, particularly sex that is consensual in that (theoretically) the individual agreed to become an active AND within the scenerio the personality agreed to the actual act. Even if not, even if you were to see this as 100% clear rape (which would be a hard argument to make) still, is that more disturbing than committing murder? When it comes down to it, even if we were to value all actions here as equally bad (sex, drugs, rock and roll, etc) I would still rather be the victim of the actions of another (as would be the case if we were to call actives having sex rape - though still I dont see why it would be) than being the one taking action to harm another. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
mearycat56	46. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Apr 27 2009, 3:12 AM EDT "The truly fascinating question that the show and this thread begs is the ontology of self. should an individual feel guilty for things done in their body by another personality, when their own personality had no knowledge or control over the events? Should one feel a sense of violation for things the body does if the mind is not engaged? on another note I am interested by the folks who initially responded to this thread and their reaction against the romantic encounters. I suppose my sense of the issue is that I find violence and murder much more problematic and disturbing than sex, particularly sex that is consensual in that (theoretically) the individual agreed to become an active AND within the scenerio the personality agreed to the actual act. Even if not, even if you were to see this as 100% clear rape (which would be a hard argument to make) still, is that more disturbing than committing murder? When it comes down to it, even if we were to value all actions here as equally bad (sex, drugs, rock and roll, etc) I would still rather be the victim of the actions of another (as would be the case if we were to call actives having sex rape - though still I dont see why it would be) than being the one taking action to harm another. " THIS IS AGOOD THREAD QUESTION!!! YA CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST(YET)SO WHY BOTHER AND WASTE TIME OVER IT?? AS LONG AS YA DIDN'T GET SCARS OR STD'S YA HAVE TO GO ON..WHERE'S THE MONEY???YA WON'T REMEMBER ANY OF IT SO EVEN IF ONE OF YOUR SEX OR OTHER PARTNERS YA HAD AS A DOLL NEVER SEE YA IT DOESN'T MATTER DOES IT! YA DON'T REMEMBER THEM IF YA DO RUN INTO THEM.,,IT WAS ERASED!! GO SPEND THE MONEY!! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
VaMage	47. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Apr 27 2009, 9:45 PM EDT "If you found out you had been a doll and you had been mindwiped which of the things you had done would bother you most, and why? Would it be the romantic missions because you had slept with total strangers, the violent missions or something else? or would none of it bother you because you had agreed to it all and it you had been very well paid for it? I think the thought of the romantic missions would bother me most. Just the idea that I had slept with a lot of strangers would be very hard for me to deal with. Also just the thought that I had spent 5 years of my life completely in someone elses control would trouble me." If it were really me? I would make Alpha look like a compassionate humane individual. IF I was well paid and had my freedom returned, something I don't believe a Rossom Corp would ever do, I think that whole thing is just a lure to make it easier to abduct the victims. But say I was well paid, and free after 5 years, I would also have to have been told in advance that my body would be used for: Any kind of sex, including say as a straight male I was to be rented out to gay clients, That I also may be hunted for the rest of my life by some cold case detective for a homicide my body had committed, not to mention insurance adjusters hunting me for the major thefts, and given the way the glitches happen I might subconsiously remember all of the above, OH and if for some reason the Dollhouse decided to I could be subect to the Attic, for life, then I guess if I had signed off on all all of that I wouldn't have any room to complain. Of course I would also have to be a stark raving mad masochist with a serious level of suicidal ideation, so my signing off wouldn't matter because I wouldn't be competent to do so in the first place. :] Post reply Do you find this valuable?
althea716	48. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? May 8 2009, 6:43 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 8 2009, 6:43 PM EDT If I found out that I had been a doll I think that I'd probably be taken back by it of course, it would be quite something to wrap my head around. But the part of me that wishes I could be a kick ass spy would either want to go Alpha on them or insist that they improve my fighting skills and other smart and sexy spy skills and get me that dream spy job. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
violette1981	49. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? May 8 2009, 6:52 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 8 2009, 6:52 PM EDT "I agree with you about the romantic missions, though men might have a different perspective. ;) Any kind of intimate encounters that I couldn't remember would bother me and make me feel violated. Ignorance is bliss, however. I'm great at denial, so I'd just convince myself they had me doing very menial tasks, like secret shopping at a department store. ;) " LOL yah denial sounds like a good course of action. I would think it would be very much like blacking out drunk (I wouldn't know but I imagine) you know when all the sudden people wake up like 3 towns over, at some diner like 3 days later wondering why they have a fat lip and a Pomeranian and a new tattoo that says "Larry" and they don't even know a Larry. I wouldn't want to know what happened, would just want to go home I think. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
violette1981	50. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? May 8 2009, 6:57 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 8 2009, 6:57 PM EDT "Could we compare it to waking up after a night of partying and suddenly realizing what you've done? No, it's probably much different than that. IMO, it wasn't really the Dolls who were doing those things. They were being controlled, so I don't know how guilty they should feel... of course, they are supposedly volunteering. I just want to know more about this process. Can't wait for the show to start! " I agree...I wouldn't really feel responsible for anything I did as a doll because it wasn't ME, especially if I was forced to be a doll. The personalities they put into the dolls bodies are composites of many people. I would feel responsible if I agreed to be a doll and knew that some of the things they might make me do would be against my beliefs, it's like letting someone use your body for evil. Obviously we dont know yet the exact circumstances under which someone becomes a doll, but I don't get the feeling that it's exactly voluntary. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
violette1981	51. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? May 8 2009, 7:00 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 8 2009, 7:00 PM EDT "I guess the real question would be if I found out I was a doll as myself or someone I was imprinted as cause if I was someone else there is no way to determine how I would respond. If it were me though I would be kinda happy about it. It is not like I don't love my life now but there is something almost liberating about the idea that you could literally be anyone and that no matter what happened how much hurt you suffered it would never stay with you. I think that the idea is amazing. So people control you the fact is people try to almost all your life at least the dollhouse project is more upfront about the control. And if you ever were let out it would be extra cool if they kept files of what you did. The self esteem boost I mean you would do things you could think you could do otherwise and though they can make you have muscle memory and everything else there isn't anyway they could force your body to do something it is physically incapable of doing so knowing all the stuff you had done with someone elses thoughts really wipes away all thoughts of incapability. In the show or in real life I would be more then willing to be a doll." You wouldn't really have much to be happy about, because you wouldn't experience it and you wouldn't remember it. It couldn't boost your self esteem because it's not you doing it. You would be stored on a hard drive, your body would be filled with someone else. I think the show is hinting that there is something primal in the dolls that is adapting and remembering, but we have yet to fully understand all of this. I guess if you're talking about feeling accomplished that some other personality forced your body to accomplish things that you yourself couldn't do, but if some other mind can do that then technically it's possible for you to do that too. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
violette1981	52. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? May 8 2009, 7:06 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 8 2009, 7:06 PM EDT "While all reactions noted are valid, I think that the essential question when you discover that yo.u had been a doll is this: Who am I, really? Is the person that I think I am now, who I was before? What does SELF mean, now that I have been so many others? This is a fundamental question in philosophy and psychology, couched in a different way, as Joss loves to do. He likes to make you think. I am sure that he will explore this theme as the series continues. It's something each of us should do regularly. The question is not, "What did I do when I was a doll?" It is "Who am I?"" Exactly! I love that this show explores that question. I think about that a lot some times, (in ways unrelated to the show) because sometimes I wonder how much of what people think is their own thoughts and how much is just what they're told on the news and don't question, or what they think others want to hear, etc. My conclusion at this time is, I think most people just don't care and are happy to have their head filled with thoughts from others, rather than questioning things and forming their own opinions. But, it's also really hard to be a rebel and go against what everyone thinks, if you do happen to think differently. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TheSizeofThings	53. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Sep 14 2009, 9:58 PM EDT \| Post edited: Sep 20 2009, 3:56 PM EDT Depends on the past of the Doll - I suppose. If as a Doll - had memories that were all bad - I'd probably be tha bad guy in the present day. If - had memories that were all good - I'd be a true good guy in the present day. AND if - had memories that were a MIXTURE of good and bad, it'd be (KINDA OF LIKE) - Anything Goes (If you know what I mean)! But if I had once been a doll how would I react? What kind of Doll would have I had been in the past? If I can best utilize my past experiece to shape my present, I'd have the power to determine my own Fate & Destiny. If I had the power to do it just my self! IN ADDITN: I just wanna say that: Listen Up Here: I am in TOTAL AIKIDO(THAT IN itself is a PROB!) - I am in total compliance & in agreeious arraignment of past culprits (although obviously Sum Folkz REALLY DON"T GIT DA Punch-line! Call tem RETARD'D) My view is wit da People that posted in response 2 this thread- though I'm NOT Sure I'm really one to Speak- ! I totally agree Bad things performed by Dolls in tha past really should not have happened, especially if it's aganist one's natural tendency (U cld've tld tem 2 fakoff.) - BUT unfortunately the past is the past. Admit it- Certain things a Doll does in the past that aren't abnormal doesn't and really shouldn't effect a Doll's present day activities, because the "past perfect" in just that - NOT ABNORMAL. However if the present day Doll can erraticate the UNWANTED & DISPICABLE activities of his or her past- DONE! w/ Assistance frm "this Doll" >w/o quintile< GDDMNIT! Anyway, if I was a Doll: my past is pretty clean (more so "Cop Style" than 'FBI Style' if U DO NOT want to mince words- plse noooo (like me literary? Man - you should have a conversation with me in real life - It's All Good - Whatever!) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
aNaRcHyX	54. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Sep 18 2009, 5:29 PM EDT I agree,if i were an evil person before the Dollhouse and in the Dollhouse i was sent on missions to help others,i guess it's sort of my chance at redemption,though i had no memory of it at the time,depending on how bad i(the me before Dollhouse and how good the me is after)would or should i still have to pay for my sins?As far as the romantic missions go,i'd have to say that i'm not really sure about that one,first if i'm in a relationship and happy,i'd be a little unnerved by it,second if i was a bad person than i might feel nothing,third if i were a bad person(maybe a killer)would i be sick enough to go and find the person and hurt them?Now the me that i am as we speak would hope that the people i helped are safe and as far as the romantic mission goes,i'd be upset,because i am a married man and do not believe in being unfaithful. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Jaded_Tech	55. RE: If you found out you had once been a doll how would you react? Sep 20 2009, 7:28 AM EDT But would that be redemption for someone for acts that they committed before they became an active. After all as you pointed out you have no memory of the acts of redemption. You are not in your body you are in a slate with no concept of the time that has past. in a sense you are programmed to perform those tasks so in a sense your active self has no freewill. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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